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Question time or a time to question

Soon after Latham's election as Labor leader long time Webdiarist and Sydney artist Robert Bosler wrote An artist's blueprint for a Latham win and A Webdiarist's speech for a Mark Latham address to the nation. In The power of Latham's ghost, Robert wrote of Latham "never to be Prime Minister, we know that now. Yet he was about creating a new Prime Ministership...". Can it happen? Or will John Howard's politics sustain itself through the questioning times ahead.

Question time or a time to question

by Robert Bosler

Fascinating time we live in just now. When many are publicly declaring answers to why our nation is in its current state, and a great many more privately doing the same, there seems also an undercurrent of perhaps the vast majority who though not necessarily voicing it are nevertheless also inclined to question.

Who would really know, of course. Yet for Australia to be thrust into these times of widespread talk of fear and serious threat it is fair to assume there are some serious questions on the national mind.

Events in America are equally fascinating. And we'd do well perhaps to reflect on matters there as a possible precursor to events happening here. After all, we have often as a nation found ourselves following an American trend.

How America came to be the united constitutional states they are is such a convoluted story it takes the briefest visit to even just two or three of those states to see and feel the tremendous difference between those states, and to find its convoluted historical story living still. It is as though the country doesn't yet know itself: preoccupied must it be in that task of coming to know who they are as a nation when it is so varied in culture and style, it is entirely understandable America is regarded elsewhere in the world as being self-interested and inward looking.

But one thing certainly and swiftly united America recently and that was its widely felt anger after the attacks on the twin towers.

That anger has died down, weakened by the growing weight of George W. Bush's immediate response to those attacks - once so widely applauded there - and dying in step with the steady continuance of the dying of her sons and daughters in Iraq. No longer is America the angry nation it was; rather, it appears to be undergoing some deep reflection and questioning of its own.

The talk now is whether the Presidency of George W. Bush can rise above the looming publicly-placed mantle where it will be seen as a lame duck, itself.

This gives rise to so many questions. Will America grow to reject George W. Bush outright? And who would be sought to take his place in the public heart and mind? And are those two questions linked as to provide influence on each of their answers? If there is no appealing alternative, will another form of internal anger develop? Can Bush recover? Will there be a terrorist situation in America which once again catalyses public opinion and back it goes on that united anger treadmill? If it were to happen, would American people respond differently the next time around?

But talk of terrorist attacks upon America seems to have itself altered. Now, the threat is seen in growing quarters not so much as the threat being immediate, but as the threat whose seeds have been planted or spawned to return in spades for a generation to come.

It's all very, very ugly and must be disheartening if not crippling for many of her people. The sound of pain from mothers, especially, is reaching us here regularly, in the telling of it.

Would it be fair to say, as has been said already, that for the Presidency of George W. Bush to be turned around, in public sentiment, the mess in Iraq must be turned around?

If Iraq, then, does not change quickly to become the sunny democracy promised by Bush perhaps the trend of disintegration of Bush's support will continue? We'll know, here, whichever way it goes.

Where does that leave our own John Howard?

Will he be chomping at the bit to remain in the Australian public mind as the great friend of George W. Bush?

And if the trend continues, of American trends arriving on our shores and growing here, will we see the same disintegration of support for John Howard, as Bush has undergone?

Is that fate awaiting our Prime Minister?

Is it all slowly and inexorably caving in for both men, one first, the other to follow?

These are valid questions.

Is there, already, a subliminal loss of support for John Howard happening, yet to show itself, as our notorious national way of expressing political interest occurs only at the time of an election? Is John Howard operating under the illusion that his standing in the community, to make these latest massive changes to our country, is like it was? Could it be the politics of it all is catching up with him, though has not yet been expressed by the slowly moving preoccupied mainstream?

Or will he triumph in the politics of it once again?

Will he distance himself from the American trend, as he has distanced himself from other political threat? Could he distance himself, politically, from a possible American rejection of Bush and yet maintain strong political ties with America? And not be seen as duplicitous?

Will he be around long enough for us to know?

Australia has very much less of that convoluted history of America. In comparison with America, our federation and states and territories have grown in quite a direct manner. We have pretty much catapulted into constitutional existence. There is very little difference in culture and style between our states and territories. We are, overall, much more aligned as one. Are we stronger or weaker on account of these things?

Europeans arrived, threw off the shackles, got down to business, and got to living it up. Settled Australians quickly got to know freedom. And to love it, and live it. Beach sand in the bed linen seemed about as bad as it got, in terms of our national psyche.

Written into our development as a nation, of course, are deep and powerful achievements. These achievements quickly grew to lead the world, in many challenging fields of endeavour. No one would decry those, nor the unseen achievements our folk make each day, in having grown into a largely tolerant and good willed nation. And within some of our people there has been deep suffering, as well. These are mentioned by way of acknowledgement here, lest they be forgotten, though this piece is not about that: discourse on modern Australia will necessarily include the growing cause for suffering. But this article is to say, overall and in comparison with so many other developed nations along the way, we've had it pretty easy.

"You guys are so laid back," we'd be told, by visitors, continually. Indeed, we love our freedom, and we cherish it, and we have it written into our psyche that, as Settled Australians, we are free.

We are threatened now by events of the modern developed world, and yet we are so very different in being young, in that modern world, and so very different in our unique embodiment and disposition to its complete opposite - being free.

Has our direct route to constitutional and sentimental freedom created a very different situation, then, in this modern, developed world of fear?

Are we the people for whom fear sits easily, comfortably, naturally? Are we built nationally to so readily accept fear?

Will we bow down to it? Will we rise in anger? Or will we slowly and surely come to reject it, not wanting either anger or fear?

Will the contrary thing happen? Will we slowly and surely come to live with fear? Will we come to take that new way of life on, naturally, as we did our freedom?

What has been the more powerful determinant in our making? Has our sense of freedom been stronger, so we'll end up rejecting the fearful way of life, and seek, creatively and with the good humour of larrikin tradition, to throw off the shackles and find our freedom once again? Perhaps emerge as a world leader in that field?

Or has it been that because we've had it easy, we'll buckle to the forces of fear, quickly and hopelessly, from lack of strength and experience in living daily with it?

It was a bevy of men who've brought the developed world to its current state, thrown up and flashed around latterly by the bells and whistles of a loud and hungry media. And there are many more questions than just these, right now, for which we'll find the answers.

No doubt time - and mothers - will do the telling.

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re: Question time or a time to question

Robert I love it. So many great questions to consider over this coming week.

Just a thought on the first one: "Will America grow to reject George W. Bush outright?"

Tony Walker in this weekend's Australian Financial Review reports that just one in three of Americans now regard George W. Bush as honest and straight-forward. Two in three Americans now dissaprove of their President. Walker notes:

"Mr Bush's reputation for honesty, hitherto one of his strengths, has collapsed by 17 percentage points since January ... attributable to Iraq."

He also points out that 57 per cent of those polled by NBC/Wall Street Journal believe that the President deliberately misled people to make the case for war.

When you look at the graph charting his rating on five different polls it is obvious - he was never really popular, but Americans supported their President when America was attacked on September 11, 2001. The polls all trend down following that, and spike up when Americans thought the Iraq War was linked to stopping terrorism, then trend down again, spike a little when Americans felt good about Saddam's capture, then again trend down, down, inexorably down.

And now even Republican support for Bush is falling away. Overall, the proportion of Republicans who approve of Mr Bush's performance in office has dropped from 89 per cent just after the 2004 election to 77 per cent now.

re: Question time or a time to question

You may have forgotten to mention it Robert but there is a democratic national election coming up in Iraq. The first such show of democracy anywhere in the Middle East outside of Israel. Not a bad effort and still no civil war.

Also the comparison that somehow Howard’s fate is tied with George W Bush is nonsense. The Australian Government and indeed its Prime Ministers have almost always shared excellent relationships with the US Government and its Presidents. I see no reason at all for a change whoever the next President is.

Howard’s fate rests wholly and solely on how the economy shapes up over the next couple of years. More importantly how the new IR changes are received by the majority in the community. One thing is certain most people out there do agree with the tougher laws regarding terrorists in this nation.

The present blame for the troubles in the world rest solely at the feet of the terrorists who so stupidly committed the 9/11 outrage. I also think most in the community would agree with that statement. All said I think John Howard along with Australia is going quiet nicely and I expect this trend to continue.

re: Question time or a time to question

George Bush's image will continue to deteriorate for the reasons Robert Bosler has mentioned. Iraq is not going to get better any day now no matter how many elections they hold. Considering the carnage from all sides since the invasion, how can it possibly? The people perpetuating roadside and suicide bombs are not going to disappear. These guerilla tactics work too well and the US military is in the most unenviable situation as occupying armies always are. Their rising death toll must eventually turn US public opinion to a rising tide of calls to quit.

Australia and John Howard's involvement has not really harmed him because we have had no casualties - and thank God for that! Nor would I want to see even one. This is a dilemna for those who oppose our involvement - we want out of the place but certainly do not want it to happen because any of our finest are hurt. And Howard benefits from that. He hasn't really been called to account for his deceptions over joining the invasion because it hasn't affected us on our home soil. Plus these new dramatic arrests with it's photo opportunities bonanza creating a new burst of public fear will fade quickly - people will soon slip back into a complacency becuase there is that mass attention deficit disorder where the masses simple cannot retain all these bursts of information being fired at them.

As for the Aussie "laid back" spirit - it's still there in spades and is an admirable quality for us but also works against us at times. We have had years now of a good economy beginning with the changes made in the Hawke/Keating years, continued by Keating and not yet stuffed up by Howard to any really bad degree. We have had it good for going on 20 years and our "laid back" spirit has bred a complacency in which an awful lot of people are really just coasting along oblivious to the fact we are part of that big world out there. We seem insulated from the rest of the planet. That cannot last and certainly with the very real changes about to be sprung upon us - with Howard's totally regressive IR changes - which will not work and will create havoc, it's wake-up time for those who have been alseep.

re: Question time or a time to question

Jay White, there you go again. supporting a liar and criminal. A man that has made Australia complicit in a war of aggression and thus also the war crimes being committed in Iraq by our great and powerful friend. You will find plenty of evidence for this on the Irises thread.

Does that not matter to you?

re: Question time or a time to question

Contrary to Jay White’s ludicrous assertion that there is still no civil war, Iraqi and US troops in Western Iraq close to the Syrian border continue to fight Iraqi insurgents in various towns in the region.

Iraqi troops fighting Iraqi insurgents? And there is no civil war?

Jay White, as has already been noted, also continues to support a proven liar and a war criminal whose lies have resulted in the deaths of tens of thousands of innocent people. Howard’s policies of lies, warmongering, inhuman detention regimes for those seeking refuge in Australia, deprivation of workers’ rights, introduction of anti-terrorist laws that are clearly designed not so much as to protect us from so-called ‘terrorists’ but to intimidate those that dissent Howard’s war policies, have greatly reduced Australia’s standing in the eyes of the peoples of the world.

Howard’s increasingly fascist-like policies and laws can only tell us one thing about those that so outrageously and consistently support him and his racist, anti-worker and warmongering policies.

When the truth is finally revealed about how Bush tried to deceive the American people, Congress, the UN and the world, Howard too will also be revealed as the lying criminal that he really is.

When history reveals the truth and makes its final judgement about Howard I suspect that the likes of Jay White will be the first to claim that they too were simply deceived.

re: Question time or a time to question

Robert writes: "And if the trend continues, of American trends arriving on our shores and growing here, will we see the same disintegration of support for John Howard, as Bush has undergone?"

Not only is Bush's support disintergrating, a video comparison shows his mental faculties are also. The Information Clearing House calls it the Bush Pre-senile Dementia Video. The first part - filmed over a decade ago shows a sharp talking speech-maker. The second part filmed during the election debates last year how far the President's intellectual faculties have declined.

Personally, I hope John Howard's support wanes rapidly but I don't wish him, or our country, this type of intellectual disintegration, and certainly not while in office.

re: Question time or a time to question

When will Robert Bosler learn from his mistakes? I am sorry this is just another load of crap like “An artists blueprint for a Latham win”.

Wishful thinking has no place in the real world of politics, and there is nothing to replace the Howard government in the Australian political scheme. Labor is just a pack of losers led by the most inept leader of all times. Perhaps Kim will blossom when Howard gets rid of the unions for him, as this is really holding the Labor Party back.

re: Question time or a time to question

I agree with you Bob Wall when you say, "Jay, there you go again, supporting a liar and criminal."

As much as it galls me, I also agree with Jay White when he says,
"Howard's fate rests wholly and solely on how the economy shapes up over the next couple of years," and "All said I think John Howard along with Australia is going quite nicely and I expect this trend to continue."

Is there a contradiction here?

To my mind, I don't think so, because we have all been missing the obvious that has been staring us in the face all along.

Why does Jay White support John Howard unquestioningly? Because Jay White IS John Howard.

In Jay's post, if you substitute "John Howard" with the first person particular ie "I" "my" etc, Jay's post suddenly makes more sense. Go back over Jay's posts and conduct the same exercise, and voila!

Margo, you would know for sure whether I am drawing a long bow, as would you Jay, if you are who you say you are. Would you care to out yourself?

Even if you are the eyebrowed one Jay, Margo is small "l" liberal in who posts here, after all, it is a free country (haw, haw, no pun intended).

Just taking up JW's comments re the economy's going along quite nicely thank you etc etc and that's really the only thing the other JW has to focus on, I think he is spot on.

With this country going headlong into a fascist state with JWH firmly in the driver's seat, WHY don't/ can't everyone else in this country see it? If it weren't for the internet, we on this forum would never know about one another and realise that there are a lot of very concerned citizens apart from ourselves. Why don't more people in the mainstream know what's happening to this country? Or do they and as Jay says in so many words, they couldn't give a stuff as long as they have all the goodies that money can buy?

Are we the cranks, the worrywarts, and really there is nothing to get ourselves in a tizz? Is that what the Jay's of this country want us to think?
Most of my friends/ acquaintances either don't want to talk politics or couldn't give a rats, because the current lot are better than the alternative (such that they are).

Fortunately there are people in this country with far greater intellects than I who have expressed concern about the course this country is taking.

But why aren't more people concerned?

George W Bush is taking a beating in the polls back home, Tony Blair faced a revolt in his own party over AT laws. Howard is part if that clique, so why isn't he suffering too? Are Australians really that dense? Why don't they care? Or if they do, why don't they say so, or more importantly, say more?

As I see it, the only way to be heard is take to the streets, the way we did in anti-Vietnam days.

Sorry, tried that and Howard rode roughshod over the Australian public anyway and declared war on Iraq.

And remember when thousands marched across Sydney Harbour Bridge to highlight the plight of the Aborigines, just to get Howard to say the S word?
It all fell on deaf ears.

So as long as Howard is in power, that is the way he will treat the citizens of Australia and ignore dissent. And create laws against it. And shut down websites like this one. Or at least monitor what goes in (good morning guys - howzit so far?)

Exciting prospect don't you think, Jay/JHW?

So where do we go from here? I say again, where do we go from here?

As more than one poster said, New Zealand is looking more and more attractive.

I just hev to brush up on my Kiwi accent, eh.

re: Question time or a time to question

Damian Lataan, there is no civil war in Iraq. Simply groups of criminals and terrorists facing the punishment of their own nation's security forces. There will also shortly be a democratic national election - the first in the Middle East outside Israel.

The same types of criminals and hoodlums that have also recently attempted to run amok in Jordan. Because you and a few other assert something does not make it true. In fact your track record on predictions would indicate the opposite is all most always the case.

In simple words you have form.

re: Question time or a time to question

Michael de Angelos: "We have had it good for going on 20 years and our "laid back" spirit has bred a complacency in which an awful lot of people are really just coasting along oblivious to the fact we are part of that big world out there".

Actually we had a rather deep recession in the early 90's that lasted through till about 1995. A lot less than twenty years ago.

Firstly to understand the success of the Howard Government one must understand the failures of its opposition. I think you will find there has been plenty of them.

Even if there happens to be a economic downturn this does not mean that people will desert the current Government. People often become more conservative during these times and stay with the people they know best.

Labor will need a miracle to win the next election.

re: Question time or a time to question

Er Jay, I think you need to do a little reading on the situation. When a group of people fight their own security forces I think you will find that amounts to a civil war. In addition, not all the Iraqi insurgents are Islamists, although Al Zaqawi seems to be. Many of them are disgruntled Sunnis and Baathist party members.

You should remember that prior to the invasion there were no Islamist insurgents or terrorists in Iraq, now the place is a breeding ground for them. Let's face it, the invasion and its aftermath has been the biggest gift Osama could have had - all free courtesy of the Coalition of the killing. If you think this has been a success I would hate to see what you would consider a foreign policy failure to be.

This war has been the greatest foreign policy bungle that could have been imagined. Worse, it has lead to the deaths of tens of thousands of Iraqis as well as US and other troops. For what? So we can now fight terrorists in Iraq where there used to be none? Let me assure you, that people who are mourning deaths of loved ones in Iraq may well blame Al Zaqawi and his minions for the actual bomb, but do you imagine for a minute they are grateful for the mess that has been unleashed upon them? Get a grip.

re: Question time or a time to question

Fear, as the historian Robert Manne has observed, is a far more politically emotive power than hope.(1) This we have witnessed in all of the elections of late that have been won by Howard. He has created fear from thin air just at the right time, every time. We have had fear of being overrun by peoples who are ‘not like us’ or do not have ‘our values’, we have had fear of interest rates rising, a very sensitive and touchy item that strikes at the hip pocket of so many Australians, and, of course, we have had fear of ‘terrorism’.

It is these simple fears that Howard relies on to maintain his power. The dumb and gullible – not to mention those others that are leveraged up to the hilt with mortgages – will submit to these fears every time.

Eventually, as always, the cycle will get broken. Latham at the last election offered hope. He offered Australian ‘aspirationals’ the ‘ladder of opportunity’. Unfortunately there seems there were more Australians that were half way up the ladder of opportunity carrying debt and mortgage than there were at the bottom waiting to get their opportunity.

But the problem with the lie of inferring that he can control interest rates is the reality that he can’t and sooner or later interest rates will rise. Furthermore, an item of economics that is less well known is the fact that a decrease in values of property against which monies are borrowed can have as equally a devastating effect on your average Aussies finance as an interest rate rise.

It is this that will eventually lead to Howard’s downfall. Just as those that voted for him feared for their financial well-being so they will disown him as he threatens their financial well-being just by being the Prime Minister around at the time when things start to go pear-shaped for them. It will be at that point that those who ignored his lies in order for him to ‘save’ their mortgage interest rates will start to point the finger at him pointing not only to the deception of interest rates but also the deception of the war and the unfounded fear of refugees.

It is then that Howard’s world will begin to crumble and with it the whole edifice of fascism that is insidiously creeping over our nation.

(1) Robert Manne, Left, Right, Left: Political Essays, 1977-2005 (Melbourne, Australia: Black Inc. Books, 2005). p. 376.

re: Question time or a time to question

Justin Whelan: "Jay and others may care to note that Iran has had democratic elections in the 1940s-50s".

That is about as relevant to today as the conquests of Rome.

"As an aside, is Turkey part of the Middle East?"

Perhaps in region however it is looking to be a part of the EU so I would say no.

re: Question time or a time to question

Jane Doe: "When a group of people fight their own security forces I think you will find that amounts to a civil war."

So France is in civil war, right? And every time some feral protesters outside a detention centre attack the police, that's civil war too, right? C'mon, Jane - be serious.

As for Damian Lataan, well I too support John Howard even though you tell me he is a proven liar. While I don't accept your premise, perhaps you can suggest a major political party in this country that doesn't have a proven liar in its ranks? Please, Damian, let us know the option that is pure and good as opposed to the evil you see in Howard.

The Democrats? Ha.
The ALP? Right.
The Greens? LMAO.

re: Question time or a time to question

Jay and others may care to note that Iran has had democratic elections in the 1940s-50s. They weren't perfect but they were better than many around the world at the time. After one PM, Mohammed Mossadegh, nationalised the oil industry the UK and USA helped organise a coup against him - reinstalling the Shah whose unaccountability led ultimately to the Islamic Revolution of 1979.

As an aside, is Turkey part of the Middle East?

re: Question time or a time to question

For all interested parties, Bob Cheek's memoirs are being published and are available online at The Tasmanian Times... there must be something in the air.

re: Question time or a time to question

Jay White, an expected response.

You have a record of dismissing facts that you do not like as mere opinion. Here is a fact: the invasion was illegal.

International law and the UN - arbiters of such matters say so. That is fact, not opinion. These matters have been raised here on numerous occasions so you should be aware of them by now. Your refusal to acknowledge them as fact is due to refusal to place facts above your prejudices.

Perhaps you you find a few hours to read through the Irises thread. Then perhaps, if you wish to argue with the evidence there you can similarly provide substantiated evidence in rebuttal instead of an unsubstantiated knee-jerk response based on limited knowledge, ignorance and denial.

re: Question time or a time to question

Jay White, you continue to ignore the fact that we have a dishonest Prime Minister whose lies have caused the deaths of tens of thousands of innocent civilians. This Prime Minister lied to the Australian people and to the Australian Parliament. He is now trying to deprive Australian workers many of their rights and he is also seeking to create a corporatist-fascist state by creating sedition laws that can be used to silence some dissidents that do not agree with his lies regarding the war in Iraq and elsewhere.

In the light of this, Howard is not worthy of any Australian's support. Yet, despite his lies and crimes you continue to support him.

re: Question time or a time to question

Bob Wall: "That Jay, is the bottom line. Are you content to be a fellow-traveller to the criminals?

No it is not the bottom line it is only an opinion. Like the old saying goes, everyone has one. This person's opinion is worth no more than mine in a democratic society like Australia. You have again made the mistake of mixing up opinion with fact.

By the way my opinion is the opposite of this person's. We are involved in a just battle and history will one day record it as such.

re: Question time or a time to question

Richard Spark, interesting conjecture. Fits well.

To all who haven't been watching the Irises thread, it has become a collation of information on the travails of the Bush administration, the war and anything that relates to those issues. Building a case, so to speak.

On article I linked was by Justin Raimondo and it contained the following quote, which is pertinent to people such as Jay who studiously ignore the evidence and place the alleged soundness of our economy above our involvement in a war of aggression and all the evils it has bred:

This war has become one prolonged act of state terrorism, and anyone who continues to support it – now that the full horror of American military tactics has been exposed – becomes a pro-terrorist fellow-traveler. I don't know if Dante reserved a special rung of Hell for such people, but if not, it should be fairly close to the bottom of the infernal pit.

That Jay, is the bottom line. Are you content to be a fellow-traveller to the criminals?

re: Question time or a time to question

Damian Lataan, although the interest rate assumption is half correct the Australian Government of the day does have input into it. Irresponsible economic management such as was the case under the Keating Government will always lead to interest rate rises.

This statement is true - "an item of economics that is less well known is the fact that a decrease in values of property against which monies are borrowed can have as equally a devastating effect on your average Aussies finance as an interest rate rise".

However the greatest way to offset any disadvantage coming from a decrease in residentual property value is by the simple use of tax cuts. That can be made possible if the budget is in surplus without any dire problems. That, Damian, is the number one advantage to a Government running consecutive large budget surpluses.

The Howard Government I suspect has still got much more than one shot to fire just yet.

re: Question time or a time to question

Dylan Kissane, there here has never been an Australian Prime Minister before Howard that has deliberately lied in order to start a war; a war that has resulted in the deaths of tens of thousands of innocent civilians. This Prime Minister has also lied about children overboard in order to deliberately demonise specifically Middle Eastern and Central Asian refugees. Your support of this liar and war criminal only reflects on your own credibility.

re: Question time or a time to question

And whom will you telephone, Malcolm B. Duncan, when you get done for sedition?

re: Question time or a time to question

Jay White: "The Howard Government I suspect has still got much more than one shot to fire just yet."

This old soldier is certainly glad to hear that because there's more than one head that needs it. The soft palate is considered the optimal angle of entry. It is at the other end from the foot.

re: Question time or a time to question

Dylan and Damian, Australian troops were comitted to an invasion of Vietnam using lies orchestrated by John Howard's hero, R G Menzies, an inveterate liar from whom our current prime miniature has learnt well.

re: Question time or a time to question

Philip Carmody, interesting post. Lots of hot air and histrionics but a marked lack of substance or accuracy. If you want to play you will have to do a lot better than that. Perhaps a cold shower would be better for you.

re: Question time or a time to question

"And whom will you telephone, Malcolm B. Duncan, when you get done for sedition?"

When only the best will do Fiona... But we wouldn't want to give the goons any sort of head start would we?

re: Question time or a time to question

Bob Wall: "Your refusal to acknowledge them as fact is due to refusal to place facts above your prejudices."

That's rich. I have watched you, on thread after thread, vehemently rip into other commentators, while putting your "prejudices" (eg, your HATRED of the Right) above the "facts" (eg, a limited insurgency is not a civil war, Bush was re-elected, Howard is a Prime Minister whose authority is unmatched and the that there will soon be ANOTHER free and fair election in Iraq). The only conclusion I can come to is that you don't like what you see so you choose to ignore the FACTS.

Resorting to slogans "war criminal", "facist", "liar" does not solve anything. It does not provide answers for the contemporary problems Australia faces today.

re: Question time or a time to question

Hi Robert, very good piece, thank you. Simplifies what a lot of mud and woods can obscure.

I wonder though does Dubya need to recover? He can't stand again can he? So it's only if he wants his clan to take over. Jeb is in waiting but he may want to wait an election or two yet as there's rather a mess to clean up.

I really can't see any way he can resolve Iraq except perhaps by attacking another country there. One or two candidates for that, what? Maybe that's the real reason they have stayed and continue to stay, so they can be ready when required for the next "implant of democracy". Hope Deputy Dawg is ready to whip our hands up in agreement.

John Howard has copied all his major policies from firstly the US and secondly the UK. Have a look at all his changes or pending changes and it is all stuff that Dubya and Tone have whispered to him as being on a winner if you like. His own thinking ceased some time back, like 1970.

I don't think Australians are at all laid back these days. More like gritting teeth in rage and desperation as we try to force another schooner down. There is a lot of anger in our society and it keeps poking holes in the dam wall. But JWH can legislate that away I guess. Make a law against anger maybe?

For Jay, no civil wear mate? What do you call it? Last report from one of the US army brass that I heard, he stated that the opposition was coming from one section of the Iraq community with the support of volunteers or insurgents, whichever term you use. Sounds like a duck, walks like a duck? Nope it's not a duck at all is it? It's a magnificent swan emerging from the smoke and rubble.

And by the way I agree we are engaged in a battle which will be be recorded correctly in retrospect, just like Malcolm says. It's not fair or just though and I suspect you are referring to Iraq when our real battle is with our PM and his attack on his own population.

re: Question time or a time to question

Ross Chippendale: "For Jay, no civil war mate? What do you call it? Last report from one of the US army brass that I heard, he stated that the opposition was coming from one section of the Iraq community with the support of volunteers or insurgents, whichever term you use. Sounds like a duck, walks like a duck? Nope it's not a duck at all is it? It's a magnificent swan emerging from the smoke and rubble".

Well then would you like to give me your thoughts on the current French civil war? Who do you think is winning it?

I personally think it is a conspiracy put on new car makers to enrich themselves further. With oil prices being so high times are a little tough.

re: Question time or a time to question

Bob Wall, who do you think should win the upcoming Iraqi elections? I wonder on election day whether they will have sausage sizzles and crazy lefties making pests out of themselves with how to vote cards? Democracy, aint it grand?

Michael Park, people said exactly the same types of things about Afganistan. There is a first time for everything when relating to history.

re: Question time or a time to question

"That is about as relevant to today as the conquests of Rome."

Ah Jay, a pearl of wisdom!

Iran did indeed have democratic elections in the period mentioned. In fact the only reason it no longer does so (in a way that the US would approve) is quite instructive: US intervention to ensconce the defunct Persian Emperor, the Shah. Ironic no? The rest – as they say – is history.

Speaking of which, it's not so much the conquests of Rome that are its relevance to current times but its attempts and the reasons for them. The first, a succinct summary of Roman foreign policy is articulated by historian Barry Strauss (author of "Salamis" an absolutely rollicking read about the seminal battle of the "Iraq-Iranian" war against the Greek "terrorist city-states"):

The dominant trait was a tendency toward preventive war against any potentially hostile power. Rome's wars against Carthage, Macedonia, and the Gauls are examples of conflicts that conformed to this pattern. Coexistence did not come easily to Romans.

Sound familiar? Nothing much new under the sun Jay.

The other is exemplified by a man of overweening ambition: Marcus Lucinius Crassus. The esurient Crassus led forty thousand men into Mesopotamia propelled by another "time-honoured Roman motive for war" – and by no means the least – greed. The old Hellenistic East was awash with resources – particularly silver, gold and other precious and luxury items. Sound familiar?

Didn't quite work out though. Crassus lost his life and – in Strauss's words:

The battle, fought about twenty miles south of Carrhae in June 53 B.C., was a disaster, costing the Romans perhaps three-fourths of the nearly forty thousand men they had committed to the battle, including legionnaires, cavalrymen, and light-armed troops.

Bush hasn't lost that many yet. To be sure he hasn't faced a fully kitted army in the field either (not that given the state of the Iraqi army it would have resulted in those casualties - or a loss). He has lost in excess of two thousand (to date). And there's plenty of time yet though as he still has the rest of Persia/Parthia to take: Iran.

The Romans were reasonably belligerent and not a little slow to learn Mark Antony lost 20,000 men in Mesopotamia, the emperor Valerian was made a Parthian prisoner (he died as such) and the emperor Julian died campaigning in Mesopotamia.

All in all, not a good place to conduct wars of aggression – particularly if it is an empire doing so (as the British too discovered – you'd think Tony Blair would've known that).

So, the conquests – or attempts at – of the Romans may indeed be relevant. As George is finding out, the Persians/Parthians/Sassanids/ Medes/ Babylonians have a history of resenting "preventive wars" – whatever the supposed altruistic reasons that are said to underpin them.

re: Question time or a time to question

Bob Wall, all I know is that war anywhere is not nice, this has always been the case and it will continue to be so. I have my doubts on any source you use for any claims you make. The quoting of people's ("fellow travellers") opinions just does not cut it for me.

Rather than quoting the butcher the baker and the candle stick maker along with anybody else that agrees with your marginal opinion, perhaps you should be hoping that these terrorists running amok in Iraq are found and dealt with quickly.

It will indeed be a great day when Iraq soon has free and fair democratic elections. Something both the USA and we here in Australia can feel proud about helping them towards this nation changing day.

I have a feeling you may one day be backpeddling from your current stance. It is just a pity the internet was not around before the fall of the Berlin Wall. I would have throughly enjoyed reading your stuff in the archives.

re: Question time or a time to question

Dylan Kissane, if you think the riots in France can be equated with the events in Iraq, if you are unable to distinguish between widespread demonstrations (albeit accompanied by property damage) and real civil war, involving the violent deaths of men, women and children, you are either stupid, or lack any empathy. Or perhaps both. For the torment of the Iraqi people to be compared to the events in France is simply breathtaking. We are seeing a civil war in Iraq, a violent, bloody and dreadful series of events-triggered by an illegal invasion based on lies and spin. This is bit different from a series of demos, triggered by social exclusion and crap policies towards third generation immigrants!

re: Question time or a time to question

Jay White, being a fellow-traveller of war criminals and state terrorists does not seem to have caused you to pause and reflect.

Have you even botherd to look at the video of Falluja or the link on Irises with photos? Have you looked at the evidence? Or are you going to continue on wallowing in denial?

re: Question time or a time to question

Jay White: "Rather than quoting the butcher the baker and the candle stick maker along with anybody else that agrees with your marginal opinion ..."

Such as the secretary-general of the UN?

Oh Jay will respond the UN doesn't matter. Well here is something from A US point of view, recalling how they cherish their Constitution:

Article VI. - The United States

All Debts contracted and Engagements entered into, before the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be as valid against the United States under this Constitution, as under the Confederation.

This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.

All treaties ... shall be the Supreme Law of the Land. That includes the UN Charter. So in walking away from the UN processes and launching a war of aggression, Bush not only breached international law and the UN Charter but also the US Constitution.

Why would I backpedal from the fundamental fact that the invasion of Iraq by the COW was illegal and much that they have done since has also been illegal - breaching international law and the Geneva Conventions?

Back to marginal opinion - look at the opinion polls in the US. They have shown that a majority think Bush should be impeached if he deliberately mislead them on Iraq. Now polls show a majority think Bush did deliberately mislead them on Iraq.

Instead of prattling on in your usual uninformed and kneejerk manner, go to the evidence and read it. Then provide counter evidence - if you can. But you never do, do you?

On pride - are you proud of the women and children with the flesh burned off their bones? Or blown to pieces?

re: Question time or a time to question

Bob Wall, the Iraq war was a legal one. I don't know where you get the idea that it was not. UN resolutions were continually broken therefore making action legal.

Now Bob if you could kindly direct me towards any person being charged for deciding to wage what you call an "illegal war"? Perhaps the butcher, baker or candlestick maker?

re: Question time or a time to question

As noted in this New York Times report, the civil war in western Iraq between IRAQI puppet government forces fighting with US forces against IRAQI insurgents continues unabated.

Meanwhile, following up on initial reports that the bomb in the hotel blasts in Amman were caused by a bomb or bombs that were placed in the ceiling, photographic evidence has now emerged that tends to support this original claim. Judge for yourselves.

re: Question time or a time to question

Damian Lataan, will they be chased down by the newly democratic elected Iraqi Government? One thing's for sure it won't be by that criminal Saddam or any of his sons.

I also would have been interested in reading your pre-Berlin Wall falling writings. One good thing about the end to this rather sad time in human history was the opening up of the spy files.

It was eye opening to see how many criminals and traitors worked for this sick form of thinking against their own nations.

re: Question time or a time to question

Well, Jay White, I suppose in one sense there is no such thing as an "illegal" war. The legality really depends on who wins.

If however, you are suggesting that the incursion into Iraq, a sovereign state and member nation of the UN, was expressly sanctioned by resolution of the UN, please give us the resolution number and the text. Otherwise, accept that it was not.

Do you delude yourself about these things or do the voices tell you?

Your posts are becoming increasingly detached from reality.

re: Question time or a time to question

Jay White, apart from most legal opinion being inclined to say that the war against Iraq was illegal there is also a question of the morality of waging a war against a sovereign nation based on nothing more than lies – a war that has resulted, as I’m sure I may have mentioned before, in the deaths of tens of thousands of innocent civilian lives.

There will come a day of judgment – and I don’t mean from above. Once Bush, Blair and Howard are no longer in power, those that have faith in International Law will pursue these criminals and ensure they face justice.

History, however, will be their ultimate judge and from that there is no escape!

re: Question time or a time to question

Bob Wall, still you have not pointed out to me who has been charged for this illegal war. I thought you were the defender of innocent before being found guilty?

"The bs about resolutions has been dispelled by the verdict - the umpire's decision - of the UN Secretariat".

Sorry Bob they are not the umpire of higher authority in the USA than the Supreme Court or our own High Court. Until they (Supreme Court, High Court) speak I have no interest in what the UN claims or does not claim. I like many others don't listen to authorities that keep nations such as Cuba and Iran amongst its ranks.

Malcolm B Duncan: "Your posts are becoming increasingly detached from reality".

Not as detached as believing writing more resolutions to be ignored would help the situation or the people in Iraq as the UN do nothings believed.

What do you think about the upcoming elections in Iraq by the way? Do you think it is good that Iraqis finally get the chance of democracy?

re: Question time or a time to question

Jay White: "the Iraq war was a legal one. I don't know where you get the idea that it was not. UN resolutions were continually broken therefore making action legal."

Perhaps from this from an earlier post:

'International law and the UN - arbiters of such matters say so.'

I have in the past linked to Kofi Annan's statements on this matter. I have also linked to the UN Charter and the ANZUS Treaty which posit the position of the UN as the arbiter on international law.

Do you not read what is posted and not understand? Or do you choose to ignore these fundamental facts?

The bs about resolutions has been dispelled by the verdict - the umpire's decision - of the UN Secretariat.

People present evidence and facts and you resort to nursery rhymes. No evidence. No rational argument, no reason emanate from you. Just ignorance and prejudice.

re: Question time or a time to question

Jay White, surely you are not serious? This must be just deliberate disruption on your part.

In previous posts I have pointed out that the UN is the arbiter on these matters and that the umpire has given his decision. No court needed for that.

Then you go on about: "Sorry Bob they are not the umpire of higher authority in the USA than the Supreme Court or our own High Court."

Oh, did you miss the bit I posted previously about the US Constitution:

Article VI. - The United States

All Debts contracted and Engagements entered into, before the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be as valid against the United States under this Constitution, as under the Confederation.

This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.

All treaties ... shall be the Supreme Law of the Land. That includes the UN Charter.

Blind are you?

Once more for emphasis, from the ANZUS Treaty:

Article I

The Parties undertake, as set forth in the Charter of the United Nations, to settle any international disputes in which they may be involved by peaceful means in such a manner that international peace and security and justice are not endangered and to refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force in any manner inconsistent with the purposes of the United Nations.

...

Article IV

Each Party recognizes that an armed attack in the Pacific Area on any of the Parties would be dangerous to its own peace and safety and declares that it would act to meet the common danger in accordance with its constitutional processes.

Any such armed attack and all measures taken as a result thereof shall be immediately reported to the Security Council of the United Nations. Such measures shall be terminated when the Security Council has taken the measures necessary to restore and maintain international peace and security.

Got it yet?

Your personal opinion, based on prejudice, means nothing in this matter. Have you anything but ignorance, prejudice and denial?

re: Question time or a time to question

Jay White, first, what on earth has the fall of the Berlin Wall got to do with the price of freshly fried chips? Or even Iraq?

Secondly, you mention that Saddam and his sons aren’t around anymore – indeed they are not; first Iraq was inflicted with the murderer Iyad Alawi, installed by the US occupiers and plunderers, and, of course, today they are lumbered with Deputy Prime Minister Ahmed Chalabi, common criminal and fraudster and the neoconservative who got the war started in the first place with his lies to the other criminal neoconservatives who used his lies to con the world.

‘Democracy in Iraq’ while the US and the likes of these criminals are running things? It’s an oxymoron!

re: Question time or a time to question

I shall take that as an acknowledgement, Jay White that there is no such UN resolution sanctioning military action. The inevitable consequence of that is that the incursionists were off on a frolic of thier own - wanton aggression.

As to elections in Iraq, I couldn't give a stuff - it's overseas. I don't like going overseas and I certainly don't like my country going overseas to invade places which have not declared war on us or our allies. Nor (what is your military record by the way - what Unit did you serve in and when?) do I like a Prime Minister and a Cabinet (who are not the Commanders-in-chief of our Armed forces) authorising military action and endangering the lives of our troops without the sanction of Parliament or the Commander-in-Chief.

re: Question time or a time to question

Jay White, I must say I admire your persistence in the face of the sustained attacks from some in this blog.

I occasionally drop by to read the more thoughtful pieces, have a giggle at the more outrageous posts, and note that you always seem to be copping it from a few fundaMENTALists.

While I might not always agree with your conclusions, I’m starting to believe that you should be nominated for an Australia Day award – for an outstanding contribution to the community and service to Australian democracy, particularly in the field of free speech. Perhaps a Companion in the Order of Australia (AC), but certainly no less than a Officer in the Order of Australia (AO).

Margo, I guess, would be grateful to you and a few others who persevere despite the hostility and vituperation that encircles you. You prevent Webdiary from becoming an echo chamber, or an enclave of ectypes.

Anyhow:

Non illigitamus carborundum or Illegitimi Non Carborundum

re: Question time or a time to question

Two comments that I think are suss. Ross Chippendale: "Jay, what do you do with your other hand while you sit there stroking your....ego," and then there is Bob Wall telling me I need to take a cold shower without bothering to actually respond to my comment and making an assertion (eg I am inaccurate).

I don't want to sound like I'm trolling, but doesn't that amount to abuse, or at least an attack on character? Number 5 of the Webdiarist Obligations: "Robust debate is great, but don't indulge in personal attacks on other contributors."

ed Hamish: the knives have certainly been out in general. Put them away please everyone.

re: Question time or a time to question

"It was eye opening to see how many criminals and traitors worked for this sick form of thinking against their own nations."

On both sides of the street Jay, both sides. Our wall wasn't the one to come down though. We only hear of some. Our "spy files" aren't laid bare.

re: Question time or a time to question

Bob Wall, I guess you will be sending your piece of legal advice off to the Supreme Court and High Courts then? Oh sorry I forgot you already have Howard and Bush convicted. Bob Wall the seeker of Court Justice indeed.

Malcolm B Duncan: "what is your military record by the way - what Unit did you serve in and when?"

That is none of your business. It is also not in any way relevant to this discussion. Unless of course you believe a person must have a military record to hold an opinion on such matters as foreign policy.

And to think you accuse me of "becoming increasingly detached from reality".

Damian Lataan, no comment. You either believe in democracy or you do not. I am fairly sure where your beliefs fall in this matter.

Simon Moffitt: "Look forward to the elections, especially when many of those elected will turn to Iran and tell the US and its oil men to get screwed".

This is a chance of happening and shows the unpredictable nature of democracy. Would you please try and explain this to some of your fellow travellers who seem to have little interest in this principle.

It would appear many are happy to sit back and watch a dictator like Saddam and his criminal family take control. It yes I would be happy to see all world dictators removed I argued this some time back about Mugabe. Funny than that the same people against Iraq were against that as well.

The UN as a world authority is a joke and its credibility is in tatters. It has long gone passed its used by date and is in need of urgent and far reaching reform or it will simply fade away.

Both Afganistan and Iraq were morally just battles. These battles will also result in many future positives. Many positives are now taking place however some people only wish to look at the negatives. The battle against terrorists and dictators was never going to be easy and still as a long way to go, however victory is very possible.

The trouble in the Middle East is only a cloak however for some peoples real problems. That is the problem some have had with the USA since at least WWII. This problem is either jealousy, fear, envy, politics, capitalism etc. If it was not Afganistan or Iraq it would be some other precieved activity.

The sad part is that these feelings have taken such control that they allow people to be duped into supporting causes of terrorists and criminals even under their own noses. The enemy of my enemy is my friend so to speak.

Like all negetive feelings over taking a persons senses it can and will always result in eventual failure.

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